‘Agatha All Along’ Boss Jac Schaeffer Talks Episode Four’s Reveal and Mephisto: “That Is Larger Than Me and This Show”

[This story contains spoilers through Agatha All Along’s fourth episode, “If I Can’t Reach You / Let My Song Teach You”]

After creating Marvel Studios’ most successful series in WandaVision, Agatha All Along showrunner Jac Schaeffer rewarded herself with the director’s chair. In addition to being Disney+’s most watched new series of 2021, Schaeffer’s show garnered 23 Emmy nominations, three wins and, for good measure, a chart-topping single called “Agatha All Along.” So, when the time came to do a spinoff with Kathryn Hahn’s Agatha Harkness in the title role, Schaeffer knew she wanted to reignite her directorial ambitions, which were last on display in 2009’s Timer.  (The sci-fi rom-com was led by WandaVision and Agatha All Along actor Emma Caulfield.)

“When you’re lucky enough to have a project be a hit [WandaVision] and you then have some capital, the question becomes: how are you going to spend your capital? And one of the answers to that question was parlaying it into a return to directing,”  Schaeffer tells The Hollywood Reporter of directing multiple episodes this season. “There’s nothing like it. Writing something and being the one to execute it and then additionally seeing it through post, it’s the ultimate.”

Agatha All Along neared its halfway point with writer Giovanna Sarquis and director Rachel Goldberg’s fourth episode, “If I Can’t Reach You / Let My Song Teach You.” The ending — following the coven’s latest trial on Witches’ Road — revolves around an intimate moment between Agatha and Aubrey Plaza’s Rio, as Agatha seemingly tries to rekindle their presumably tragic romance from years past. However, instead of returning Agatha’s attempt at a kiss, Rio drops the revelation that Joe Locke’s mysterious character, Teen, isn’t Agatha’s deceased son, Nicholas Scratch, in some new shape or form. 

As for whether the audience should believe the cunning Rio, Schaeffer can only say so much at this time.

“I just think it’s about the dynamic between Agatha and Rio. At this point in the story, it’s impossible for them to find each other, and that’s the real question,” Schaeffer says. “Obviously, they have so much chemistry and they have so much heat, so what’s the problem? That’s really what that scene points to.”

In writer Cameron Squires and Goldberg’s third episode, “Through Many Miles of Tricks and Trials,” Sasheer Zamata’s Jennifer Kale raises the subject of Scratch to Teen, positing the rumor that he might be an “agent of Mephisto.” The latter is a demonic Marvel supervillain whose potential presence on WandaVision was heavily theorized about in ways that overwhelmed Schaeffer at the time. The big bad never actually appeared, but following the WandaVision finale, Schaeffer insisted that she still didn’t have much of an interest in him or the other persistent scuttlebutt involving Magneto.

But now that Mephisto has truly entered into her work, Schaeffer candidly admits that the decision outranks her. 

“It was a conversation with [Agatha] executive producer Mary Livanos, [Marvel’s head of streaming] Brad [Winderbaum] and [Marvel Studios boss] Kevin [Feige], but it is a mention that is larger than me and this show. It is the larger Marvel-ness of it,” Schaeffer shares. “So it is not about me bristling or having any kind of a reaction or agenda, mostly because that type of fevered discourse that is very, very rooted in the comics is not as interesting to me as the current story being told in the series at hand.”

Below, during a recent spoiler conversation with THR, Schaeffer also addresses the idiosyncratic nature of Patti LuPone’s fan-favorite Lilia, before confirming a WandaVision-related theory regarding Debra Jo Rupp’s Sharon Davis.

We spoke previously about how you were back in Kate Winslet territory with the Agnes of Westview fantasy in Agatha All Along’s series premiere, and shortly after that, I talked to Craig Zobel, who directed Mare of Easttown in its entirety. The conversation was largely about how he had to reference Matt Reeves’ The Batman on his new series, The Penguin, but then I broke the news to him that Agatha All Along had just referenced his work on Mare. So he lit up because he was unaware of it, and he was genuinely touched to be a reference for the first time. You made his day.

Thank you for sharing that and for transmitting that message. I’m friendly with [Mare showrunner] Brad Ingelsby, and he and I have emailed a bunch about [Agatha]. His reaction has been so lovely and gratifying and a relief. You never know how people are going to take it, but he seems to be delighted by it, so that interaction has been great. I don’t know Craig, but I’ve heard through colleagues how wonderful he is. Of course, I know how talented he is, so thank you for telling me that. That’s just really great to hear. 

I know you pitched the idea of the prestige drama as a sort of 180 from classic sitcoms, but did part of you choose Mare because Mare and Agatha both had deceased sons that weighed heavily on them?

Yeah, that was definitely part of it. Kate is so extraordinary on that show, and Kathryn is capable of that level of excellence in her work. So we also looked at The Killing and True Detective, but Mare, of recent projects, is such a pinnacle. It became our true north in the characterization of Agnes of Westview, for sure. People can’t escape Mare. There are shows that hit and then fade, but people still talk about Mare, and it seems to me that it will remain a classic.

Gosh, I haven’t thought about The Killing in a long time. I’ll never forget the eventually controversial tagline of, “Who killed Rosie Larsen?”  

Yeah, and of course, there was Twin Peaks. We had a writer in our room who’s so into Twin Peaks that it filtered in. But I’m so delighted that the joke that Agnes of Westview is based on a Danish series has gotten a little bit of traction. That joke from that is directly from The Killing. [Writer’s Note: AMC’s The Killing  was based on the Danish series Forbrydelsen.] And when I was writing the pilot, I believe that the very funny Will Arnett parody detective show [Murderville] was airing on Netflix, and that was such an overt send-up of the [genre’s] tropes that it just felt like it was everywhere at the time. It was very zeitgeist-y.

Have you forgiven me for asking whether Evan Peters’ Ralph B. was ever in the mix to play Evan’s own Mare of Easttown character? (Schaeffer previously quipped, “Now I wish I could reshoot the pilot.”)

There’s nothing to forgive. I relish any opportunity to think about Evan Peters, who’s so wonderful.

You directed three episodes on Agatha All Along including the series premiere with Agnes of Westview fantasy. Was getting back in the chair a prerequisite if you were going to lead another Marvel series? 

Yeah, it really was. Directing is what I always wanted to do, but I found more opportunities as a writer than I did as a director. So when you’re lucky enough to have a project be a hit [WandaVision] and you then have some capital, the question becomes: how are you going to spend your capital? And one of the answers to that question was parlaying it into a return to directing. It’s so satisfying. There’s nothing like it. Writing something and being the one to execute it and then additionally seeing it through post, it’s the ultimate.

I believe it had been 15 years since you last directed, so did you consult director friends and use them as a sounding board while you got back into the swing of things?

Yeah, it had been a long time, and I would say that the people that I really leaned on were my immediate colleagues on [Agatha All Along]. So I really leaned on my director of photography, Caleb Heymann, and I hired him because he was so comfortable with the fact that I didn’t have any episodic directing experience. I also had two ADs who were equally just very chill about the fact that I wasn’t as experienced at directing on this scale. You want the AD department to have your back, and so all of that was really great. 

But then I reached out to colleagues, and some of those conversations were technical: “How many setups do you get in a day?” Sometimes, I was looking at the schedule and being like, “Am I crazy that that seems like too much?” So I would maybe bounce it off a friend and they’d be like, “Yeah, that’s too much. You need to ask for another day or figure out a way to minimize.” But it was primarily like, “Am I going to be okay?” And the answer was always like, “Yeah, directing is having an opinion and you have a lot,” so you’ll be okay.

We also talked about how much the overabundance of fan theories affected you on WandaVision and how you took some preventive measures this time around so that an unnamed aerospace engineer didn’t turn into Reed Richards again. Thus, was Joe Locke’s Teen designed to be an invitation for fan theories? Was he your way of telling people to let loose? 

I wouldn’t say that was the primary objective of the design. For every WandaVision theory that felt a little bit like it went off the rails, there were 20 theories that were delightful both in them being correct or being things that the writers and I wished we had thought of. So the delight and the ingenuity far outweighs the queasy feeling of, “Oh man, that’s gone in the wrong direction.” So more than the mystery of Teen being a response to the wackadoo theories, I would say that the construction of the mysteries was an attempt to squeeze even more juice out of that fun. It also has a utility in the show, which I can’t entirely speak to because you’ve got to see the whole show to fully embrace it, but it is not a mystery for mystery’s sake.

Teen was also on the receiving end of Jenn Kale’s “agent of Mephisto” line, and I found that interesting because you once told me that you weren’t really interested in him during our WandaVision finale talk. That said, given all the Mephisto theories, I get why you’d feel that way at that specific moment in time. Anyway, since some writers actively bristle against fan service, did you need some convincing to finally go there in some capacity?

I wouldn’t say that I needed convincing. It was a conversation with executive producer Mary Livanos, [Marvel’s head of streaming] Brad [Winderbaum] and [Marvel Studios boss] Kevin [Feige], but it is a mention that is larger than me and this show. It is the larger Marvel-ness of it. So it is not about me bristling or having any kind of a reaction or agenda, mostly because that type of fevered discourse that is very, very rooted in the comics is not as interesting to me as the current story being told in the series at hand.

There’s been all sorts of theories that Teen is either Wanda or Agatha’s son, and in episode four, Rio seems to eliminate the latter possibility regarding Agatha being the mother. Can we take her at her word? Should we?

Well, first she says, “That boy isn’t yours.” Let’s see, how do I answer this? This is where things get sweaty right in the middle of the show. I just think it’s about the dynamic between Agatha and Rio. At this point in the story, it’s impossible for them to find each other, and that’s the real question. Obviously, they have so much chemistry and they have so much heat, so what’s the problem? That’s really what that scene points to.

It’s been implied that Agatha and Rio, or Agathio, had a doomed romance in the past. 

(Laughs.) I just read “Agathio” this morning! I was like, “Oh my goodness, wow!”

I didn’t realize that that portmanteau was a thing yet. Anyway, Rio dropped the reveal about Teen in the midst of Agatha trying to kiss her. Why did Rio decide to ruin that tender moment between them and hurt Agatha even more?

Again, it is hard to really talk about this because there’s so much yet to unfold, but I appreciate the question very, very much, and I would like to try to answer it as best I can. I would just say that Rio’s interest in Agatha has a lot of depth to it. When we first see them together as their true selves in that fight at the end of 101, it’s all fun and games. It’s hair pulling and scratching and knives and sexiness, but there’s real pain and real yearning.

Was Aubrey Plaza doing double duty based on her absence between one and four?

Well, it’s rarely just a practical thing. In the writers’ room, we knew that Rio would be so special, and we were trying to titrate how combustible we wanted their interactions to be. So we knew we couldn’t have them together all the time because it’s not a rom-com. It’s not about two people with cute conflict who then fall into bed with each other. So we always knew that Rio wouldn’t be around all of the time, and I believe the construction of the episodes predated Aubrey’s availability. But, yes, we did not have her entirely in the way that would’ve made things easier. Still, I would say those decisions were more about story. 

There’s a lot of “justice for Sharon,” but there’s also a lot of “where’s Rio?” And part of our job is holding back. You can’t give everybody everything they want all the time. You need a little pain and a little frustration in your watch to keep you going.

In episode three, when Agatha finally drinks the wine, Sharon (Debra Jo Rupp) immediately says, “Please, please. Wanda, I’m begging you. Let him breathe.” Is that what she was trying to say in WandaVision’s series premiere as her husband (Fred Melamed) choked at dinner? Was Wanda’s spell preventing her from saying those specific words? 

I’ve never actually thought of it in such stark terms, but I would say yes. That’s her subconscious talking in revisiting that horrific moment, yeah.

Along the same lines, what morsel of insight can you provide regarding Lilia’s (Patti LuPone) outbursts?

I can’t actually speak to it too much because Lilia is a character whose characterization and arc unfurls more slowly than the rest. But she’s a kook. We know that so far.

While you got most of them back, were there any Westview townspeople from WandaVison that you wanted to bring back but couldn’t for whatever reason? 

It would’ve been fun to find a way to bring back the folks in the commercials. They were terrific, but that was its own weird space that was separate from the show itself. So, in my Twilight Zone mind, I couldn’t make it make sense to pull those people out of the commercials and put them into the town. But I was delighted that we had the Westview company back, and they’re all wonderful. They were all together at the premiere in L.A., and it was like one big group hug. They’re just a really special company.

WandaVision had a lot of interaction with MCU movies. It revisited Avengers: Age of Ultron and Captain America: Civil War, and it had to lead into Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness, as well as The Marvels. Was there less of that on this series? Were you able to silo yourselves from the movies? 

There was less of that on this show because Agatha hasn’t appeared in any of the features. We didn’t have the burden of retrofitting any canon. On WandaVision, both Paul and Lizzie [Elizabeth Olsen] had so much backstory in themselves and between each other. So their moments of romance in the films are so petite, but they meant so much to those two performers. So we wanted to underscore those moments and fill them out more. We also had the larger Scarlet Witch burden of the Infinity Stone and that kind of thing. Even with WandaVision, it was less about how it fits with future properties. We had some of that, but it was more, “How do we nestle this in what already exists and both enhance the story we’re telling and buttress the stories that have come before?” It’s heartbreaking to disavow or tear down what’s already been established, and [upholding the past stories] was part of our work there. So we didn’t have that work in as big of a way on Agatha All Along because Agatha is her own bird.

Interconnectivity is cool, but sometimes it’s nice to just enjoy a show on its own terms.

To be honest, I didn’t actually realize how helpful interconnectivity is. Most writers have an enormous imagination, and when something can be anything, that can be daunting. So when you’re like, “It can only be this thing, but do it well,” I find that kind of freeing. When we were first looking at the Witches’ Road and how we were going to design it, a lot of what’s in the comics wasn’t material that we could or wanted to use. But then it felt wide open, so I found the initial brainstorming on the road almost too blue sky.

You’ve seemingly done non-stop work on two MCU features (Black Widow and Captain Marvel) and two MCU series, so is that why you gave up Paul Bettany’s Vision Quest? Did you need a reprieve? 

Yeah, [Agatha All Along and Vision Quest] overlapped in a way that wasn’t tenable for me, and it was with a very heavy heart that I realized that it logistically wouldn’t work for me. But I am so looking forward to that show. I am just an enormous cheerleader for everybody involved, especially Paul.

Lastly, of your directorial work that’s aired so far, when did you most feel the rush of being a director again? 

It was day one on the pilot, mostly because those initial [Agnes of Westview] shots in that episode are so contrary to everything I’ve ever done. I’ve never done a moody drama or an atmospheric gritty thing before, and when we were shot listing the shots I had in my head, I was like, “These feel right for someone else.” We were blessed on the day with this very light rain that caused this beautiful mist, and we didn’t have the technology to make the texture look that good. If that had been our goal, we wouldn’t have been able to do it ourselves, and it was just a gift. So the thing that existed in my brain became even better, and yeah, it was a rush.

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Agatha All Along is currently streaming on Disney+.